Mon Aug 22 19:07:13 CEST 2022 |jennss |Comments (105)As a start-up with solar cells on the body, Sono has a hard time and is struggling with costs, production and such.I also thought it would be pointless.But I don't see it that way anymore.I think solar cells on the body have a special future.With the Sono Sion it is now the case that with 54 kWh it only manages 305 km according to WLTP because the car is quite high.Maybe some other things on the car are not quite as optimized as with established manufacturers (tires?), but I now believe that the idea with the solar cells has a great future or rather a not so small target group for which it really makes sense.With the Hyundai Ioniq 5, the counter-argument that the solar roof was not profitable quickly came up.That brings a maximum of 205 watts and it takes half an eternity until the surcharge is recouped with charged electricity.But firstly, the Ioniq 5 only has the roof with solar cells (it should bring a maximum of 2000 km/year) and secondly, it's not just about profitability, it's about more.Unfortunately, according to the configurator, the Ioniq 5 is currently no longer available with a solar roof.An e-car with solar cells on the body prevents deep discharge of the battery when the car is not used much (eg older people).It even gets full from standing around (hopefully with an adjustable load limit because 100% wouldn't be good either).Some of the kilometers can be driven completely without external charging if the car is left outdoors a lot.This will be particularly important in sunny areas, such as Africa, where many people don't have much money for gas.There, the e-car will be very attractive thanks to solar power and if it doesn't need an external solar system, but always has it with you, all the more so.A V2L connection would also be good because it would allow excess power to be stored externally.I don't know if the Sion comes with it.The solar body is of course not particularly interesting for frequent drivers with a garage, but for them an e-car is more worthwhile than the normal, comparatively low maintenance costs (compared to combustion engines).But there are still a lot of people who don't drive that many kilometers a year.Sono states: "On an annual average, the Sion should be able to drive 112 kilometers per week with the power of the sun, with a maximum of even 245 kilometers in it."That is an average of 52 weeks x 112 km = 5824 km per year, a maximum of approx. 12000 km (in Africa or southern Europe).If you then add the free kilometers that the GHG quota for e-cars brings (approx. €350/year) (at 40 cents/kWh and 20 kWh/100 km average consumption around 4375 km), you get the figure over 10,000 free kilometers with the Sion.A comparably large and powerful combustion engine would have perhaps 7 l./100 km at €2/litre and thus costs of €1400 every year at 10,000 kilometers a year.Another advantage is that you can simply leave the car almost empty and don't have to recharge it immediately because it slowly charges itself.So you also save the trip to the charging station if you can't charge at home, ie if you're a "lantern parker".The car charges under the lantern even at night.I would think it would be good if there were more and more manufacturers who could optionally equip at least the roof and the front hood with solar cells.That would be a good thing, especially for small cars like an eUp, because they are generally not that mile-eaters and are often driven by people without their own garage.The Lightyear 0 is not ideal for a solar roof in its price range (€250,000), but shows just as much technical direction as the Sion.With the Lightyear, it's nice that the car can at least have some color left without solar panels on the sides.I find that a bit unfortunate about the Sion.The Sion is always black.I would rather offer a variant without side solar cells or color the areas around the solar cells.Maybe Sono should reconsider that.I also hope that solar cells and sunroofs will not be mutually exclusive in the future.The first car with a solar roof was the Toyota Prius 4 plug-in hybrid, wasn't it?Incidentally, the Sion reminds me in a way of the first Tesla Model S, which can still be charged free of charge with superchargers and therefore still achieve high resale prices even as old cars with murderous mileage.The Sion is also such a car that can be driven forever for free, at least part of the kilometers per year.A high resale value makes the car more valuable or indirectly cheaper.PS: I got the pictures from the Sono homepage, thanks!Mon Aug 22 19:15:09 CEST 2022 |Alexander67I think it's a mistake.Although of course it's cool.Either the car is not driven enough to use the PV effectively or too much because you want to drive more than x km per day.Mon Aug 22 19:45:57 CEST 2022 |jennssYou can also recharge the Sion at the plug.Mon Aug 22 19:47:22 CEST 2022 |Alexander67@jennss wrote on August 22, 2022 at 19:45:57:You can also recharge the Sion at the plug.And when the battery is full, the PV only uses it for trickle charging.Mon Aug 22 20:00:16 CEST 2022 |jennssThen the car has to stand around for a long time (several weeks), which isn't a problem.As already written, a V2L connection would be good (power goes out to external storage).However, a car battery is usually much larger than a typical battery in a domestic PV system.Mon Aug 22 20:05:34 CEST 2022 |LF-XI think I can remember that the Sion should also be able to V2G.The Cybertruck will also get an optional PV deck.But both companies are similarly good at announcing their products.They probably don't know themselves what's really going to happen.At least the puny 35kWh battery on the Sion is off the table.When the was announced, what the topic of Sion meant for me.Otherwise I like the concept, but not the founders.Where is the third one?Mon Aug 22 21:36:57 CEST 2022 |bronx.1965How long has the "project" been haunting the media?Mon Aug 22 22:22:23 CEST 2022 |jennssThat's exactly why I could imagine that the importance of the solar cell body is underestimated.A lot of people think that the idea must be useless because it has taken so long to develop.However, I think that Sono is not Loremo.It is important that something with solar cells on the body comes soon.Unfortunately, Lightyear is far too expensive for the actual target group of this technology.Mon Aug 22 23:06:18 CEST 2022 |bronx.1965I could imagine that in the foreseeable future there will no longer be any group of consumers for such "gimmicks".People stick to their money and simply have no nerve for such innovations.It doesn't matter if Sono or Loremo.Which ultimately was nothing more than a stillbirth.'Sustainability' is only topic number 3 in many parts of the population in days of lived existential fear.Everything else misses the (current) reality and is wishful thinking...Mon Aug 22 23:09:49 CEST 2022 |nobrettThe surfaces on a car body are far too small and usually not particularly well aligned.A PV only delivers really well when the sun shines directly on it or when it is really bright.That means: always park in the blazing sun, avoid shade, parking garages and underground garages.For this you then drive with the air conditioning off or on minimum to achieve the expected range.Anyone who has a PV on the roof and observes the yields knows that the comparatively tiny PV on the car body will not be of much use.And if you drive so little that you even have to think about feeding energy into the grid, you really don't need a car at all.In my opinion, this is a marketing gimmick.It would be great if a car could generate the energy to drive itself.Who wouldn't like that?Tue Aug 23 05:06:39 CEST 2022 |Black Forest4motionIn principle, for trickle charging or to support pre-air conditioning, a well-rounded affair.Since you usually don't load to 100%, it's always supportive.Ultimately a question of optics and costs, in the best case it generally prevails and does not attract attention.I consider the situation to be the most probable because of technical progress, even if only on horizontal surfaces.Should be considered everywhere anyway, let me remind you of the cycle paths with solar and other considerations.Tue Aug 23 07:35:17 CEST 2022 |dynamixI don't see it as particularly useful.It is not for nothing that this has not really caught on so far.As has already been written, the yield is far too low and all these prototypes that only feel like they can run 10,000 km on solar are nothing that a normal thinking person would put in front of the door.Not everyone is in the mood for such a rolling 1-man plastic coffin without any comfort extras.That's exactly what all these efficiency prototypes are.Not compatible with our comfort and safety requirements, let alone with any legal requirements in this direction.And that's why the whole thing is simply too inefficient for road cars.And whether all the cinnabar is worth it for the bit of trickle charge?Especially because you have to consider that such a solar cell does not grow on trees.That should drive up the production costs and thus the final price considerably.Then there is the issue of vandalism.I wouldn't be surprised if some bored Kevin bangs on the solar panels at night just because he thinks it's funny.Then the solar modules may also have to be cleaned in order to develop their full efficiency.I can already see all the lantern parkers in front of me who never clean their cars anyway.You can let it be, because the effort is disproportionate to the benefit.The thought that you can only drive/charge such a car with the cell is tempting, but unfortunately not practicable.Tue Aug 23 08:00:55 CEST 2022 |Black Forest4motion@Dynamix wrote on August 23, 2022 at 07:35:17:... Not everyone is in the mood for such a rolling 1-man plastic coffin without any comfort extras.That's exactly what all these efficiency prototypes are.what are you thinking about?Those times are long gone...And whether all the cinnabar is worth it for the bit of trickle charge..The exponential rate of fall in solar cell prices gives reason to hope. Research does the rest.Then there is the issue of vandalism.A temporary problem, otherwise there would be no metallic paint.The thought that you can only drive/charge such a car with the cell is tempting, but unfortunately not practicable.That's not what it's about, it's about saving over the entire mileage and not letting the unused space lie idle for an energy-hungry vehicle.Every day ~1kW are after 15 years also over 5000 kW, so a fan can run for a long time.Tue Aug 23 08:16:37 CEST 2022 |nottingThis will be particularly important in sunny areas, such as Africa, where many people don't have much money for fuel.But they have a lot of dust, which reduces the performance of the PV.I also wonder how long it will take for BEVs to be accepted there because they would also have to convert their workshops.Of course, the solar body is not particularly interesting for frequent drivers with a garage... and underground car park/multi-storey car park, carport, under trees and in narrow street canyons where the sun doesn't reach that well...Sono states: "On an annual average, the Sion should be able to drive 112 kilometers per week with the power of the sun,And what if the car wg.Standing around on vacation for 1-2 weeks and that's why the battery is getting too full?;-)They will also assume clean cars, but this is not always the case or would cause additional costs, at least as far as my car washing behavior is concerned.In addition, you will not be able to drive much in winter, even if parked outside and there is no snow on it.which brings the GHG quota for e-cars (approx. 350 €/year)IMHO it will go down soon because there is a larger supply of BEV/charging station owners selling their GHG quota and less demand for the GHG quota because more and more BEV/charging station owners are filling up less and less.(at 40 cents/kWh and 20 kWh/100 km average consumption about 4375 km)My basic supplier will soon charge new customers approx. EUR 0.50/kWh _plus_ basic fee.If you sort out the outdated rubbish from the various price comparison sites (always check it on the electricity provider's website!), it probably won't be much cheaper.My last two rental cars in the Golf class from the VAG group used about 6l/100km of petrol on long journeys.Incidentally, the Sion reminds me in a way of the first Tesla Model S, which can still be charged free of charge with superchargers and therefore still achieve high resale prices even as old cars with murderous mileage.... because there have been several major replacement campaigns on the drive train...There is one topic you didn't address at all: Even every bump in the park and hail damage are likely to cause massively higher costs, either for the person who caused it or for you elsewhere.Is that worth the little bit of electricity gained?!Tue Aug 23 09:00:39 CEST 2022 |Black Forest4motion@notting wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:16:37:...Even every parking bump and hail damage should cause massively higher costs...The built-in polymer solar modules are slightly robust and cheaper than the usual modules, they should be able to handle parking bumps.Incidentally, one saves a pressing tool and the painting, i.e. a storm in a teacup.Tue Aug 23 09:12:53 CEST 2022 |Woeufu@notting [url=https://www.motor-talk.de/.../...nd-target group-one-solar-body-And what if the car wg.Standing around on vacation for 1-2 weeks and that's why the battery is getting too full?;-)Yes, and what if I forget to pull the plug in time after charging?In principle, solar cells are opposed to being installed in cars because, for static reasons, they prefer to have double-curved surfaces.On the other hand, it's a shame to give away so much space.If there are 67 million cars in Germany parked on 670km² of expensive building land (worth €130 billion) - ok, I digress - and we only use 2m² each (bonnet and roof) then that is an average output of 4.2GW.That's enough to turn off a few coal-fired power plants.Tue Aug 23 10:57:24 CEST 2022 |dynamix@Schwarzwald4motion wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:00:55:what are you thinking about?Those times are long gone.Admittedly, a bit exaggerated, but that's exactly what I was thinking.And I don't think we've gotten to the point where something like this can be transferred to a standard car, which weighs significantly more, has significantly worse air resistance and is supposed to offer certain comfort and safety requirements.@Schwarzwald4motion wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:00:55:The exponential rate of fall in solar cell prices gives reason to hope. Research does the rest.Tjoa, basically the same as with the battery technology.For years there have been hopes for the super battery that will solve all the problems of e-mobility.It will be interesting to see if and when something like this will happen.@Schwarzwald4motion wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:00:55:A temporary problem, otherwise there would be no metallic paint.Although there is a difference.A scratch in the paint limits the aesthetic perception at most.A broken solar cell then limits the function noticeably.@Schwarzwald4motion wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:00:55:That's not what it's about, it's about saving over the entire mileage and not letting the unused space lie idle for an energy-hungry vehicle.Every day ~1kW are after 15 years also over 5000 kW, so a fan can run for a long time.Yeah, but it often seems to me that that's exactly the expectation when it comes to the topic of cars + solar cells or that the battery will at least charge itself during the day.We're not that far yet, and it's also questionable whether we'll ever get there.And to the example calculation: The corresponding prerequisites would then have to be met first.If you then park your car in the company garage during the day and then under the lantern in the evening, you won't get much out of it.Anyone who has a garage is more likely to charge via the socket or, in the best case, have their own PV system with a buffer.I just think that the idea, as of today, is nothing more than a nice gimmick because you don't really get a significant range with it.To do this, the whole thing has to prove itself in reality.Theoretical number games are all well and good, but reality shows that there are enough factors that can spoil the great calculation quite a bit.The biggest uncertainty factor on the subject is probably the userTue Aug 23 11:48:55 CEST 2022 |no matter what2010@Dynamix wrote on August 23, 2022 at 07:35:17:I don't see it as particularly useful.It is not for nothing that this has not really caught on so far.As has already been written, the yield is far too low and all these prototypes that only feel like they can run 10,000 km on solar are nothing that a normal thinking person would put in front of the door.Not everyone is in the mood for such a rolling 1-man plastic coffin without any comfort extras.That's exactly what all these efficiency prototypes are.Not compatible with our comfort and safety requirements, let alone with any legal requirements in this direction.And that's why the whole thing is simply too inefficient for road cars.And whether all the cinnabar is worth it for the bit of trickle charge?Especially because you have to consider that such a solar cell does not grow on trees.That should drive up the production costs and thus the final price considerably.Then there is the issue of vandalism.I wouldn't be surprised if some bored Kevin bangs on the solar panels at night just because he thinks it's funny.Then the solar modules may also have to be cleaned in order to develop their full efficiency.I can already see all the lantern parkers in front of me who never clean their cars anyway.You can let it be, because the effort is disproportionate to the benefit.The thought that you can only drive/charge such a car with the cell is tempting, but unfortunately not practicable.The solar panels on the house roof, who is cleaning them?Vandals also prefer to destroy LUXURY carriages, envy and stupidity is the main reason.Whether the majority can afford our current luxury for much longer is another question.My parents never had a car.There will come a time when the car will only be used to get around.Today's cars aren't profitable either.An economics professor said to his students at the end: If one of you wants to show me your new car next year, please hand in your diploma, because you don't understand anything about economics.Tue Aug 23 12:02:49 CEST 2022 |dynamix@egalwat2010 wrote on August 23, 2022 at 11:48:55:The solar panels on the house roof, who is cleaning them?Depending on the system, this makes perfect sense!Also has something to do with the angle of inclination and so on, but that's going too far.Putting that aside: With a car you will have to somehow integrate the panels into the bodywork.Nobody will mount a kind of solar spoiler just so that the inclination fits.So it's hard to compare.And especially with cars, where the roof is an option, the issue of dirt is another one because the dirt is difficult to wash off with rainwater due to the lack of inclination.So you would have to do it regularly, precisely because the whole thing only works on a small scale and then noticeably reduces the already tiny yield.Vandals also prefer to destroy LUXURY carriages, envy and stupidity is the main reason.Or bored young people, force majeure and and and.I've seen it often enough that older cars have been misused.It was just about the desire to destroy.It is not for nothing that local public transport suffers from the same problem and older trains are also broken, smeared and so on.It's not always the left-wing mob that roams through luxury districts and sets fire to every Porsche SUV that hasn't disappeared into the garage by 3.Tue Aug 23 12:07:10 CEST 2022 |notting@egalwat2010 wrote on August 23, 2022 at 11:48:55:@Dynamix wrote on August 23, 2022 at 07:35:17:The solar panels on the house roof, who is cleaning them?In a certain inclination range (IIRC which is in the order of 15-60°) the self-cleaning effect is e.g.B. over it rains sufficiently high.You usually only have such angles on the front and rear window of a car, but you don't want solar cells there ;-)In addition, when it snowed during the night, I see enough cars driving around with a few centimeters of snow on their roofsIn addition, the PV system on a house roof is usually aligned in such a way that the owner expects the most yield.When it comes to car parking spaces, there is often not much choice...Vandals also prefer to destroy LUXURY carriages, envy and stupidity is the main reason.Whether the majority can afford our current luxury for much longer is another question.My parents never had a car.There will come a time when the car will only be used to get around.Today's cars aren't profitable either.An economics professor said to his students at the end: If one of you wants to show me your new car next year, please hand in your diploma, because you don't understand anything about economics.Why doesn't he say the same about all other hobbies?Apart from that, frequent drivers with a BEV who can charge a lot at home (especially with their own PV on the roof) can drive cheaper than with a combustion engine.It's just that BEVs haven't been around that long and the used market is currently very tight and there are still BEV subsidies...Tue Aug 23 15:51:48 CEST 2022 |soup of the dayWhoever writes about Africa here seems to have no idea how the efficiency of solar cells decreases with increasing temperature.Tue Aug 23 15:54:58 CEST 2022 |PIPD blackOperating a car with solar cell power makes just as much sense as wanting to operate it with wind power (sails).It works occasionally, but never permanently.Didn't one even want to let ships on the seven seas go under sail or kites again?Tue Aug 23 15:59:48 CEST 2022 |Alexander67@PIPD black wrote on August 23, 2022 at 15:54:58:Operating a car with solar cell power makes just as much sense as wanting to operate it with wind power (sails).It works occasionally, but never permanently.Didn't one even want to let ships on the seven seas go under sail or kites again?Will something like this prevail in the professional field again?I wouldn't rule it out.Tue Aug 23 21:39:39 CEST 2022 |jennss@nobrett wrote on August 22, 2022 at 11:09:49 p.m.:The surfaces on a car body are far too small and usually not particularly well aligned.Yes, it varies and is a matter of luck how the sun is facing the roof.The area is probably about the size of a balcony power station (200 to 600 watts peak).The big advantage of a car, however, is that the storage is directly attached, and a large one at that, from which the electricity can be used again directly.Solar energy can be used much better with storage than without.Tue Aug 23 21:55:29 CEST 2022 |jennss@Dynamix wrote on August 23, 2022 at 07:35:17:I don't see it as particularly useful.It is not for nothing that this has not really caught on so far.Exactly this counter-argument I expected.That's why I wrote the article.I didn't see much sense in the idea at first either, but I see it differently now, namely target group-oriented (a good solution for people who drive infrequently and don't have the option to charge at home).And in principle it is good if not so much energy has to be drawn from the grid, but is generated by yourself.In contrast to the balcony power plant, you certainly don't have to register the solar cells on the car.As has already been written, the yield is far too lowOn the one hand, in my opinion, it's not just about the costs, but also that it's practical if the car recharges itself.On the other hand, I definitely think that it can also be financially worthwhile in many cases.If the 112 km per week from the solar cells that Sono states as an annual average are correct, that's great.I would love to have the roof of our ID.3 foiled with solar cells (it's already black anyway), if you could get the energy in the battery.Not compatible with our comfort and safety standards,How so?Where is there a contradiction?let alone with any legal requirements in this direction.And that's why the whole thing is simply too inefficient for road cars.Inefficient means that you don't get enough energy out of what you put in.I never believe that.In the course of life, the cells will certainly extract more energy than they used in production.Especially because you have to consider that such a solar cell does not grow on trees.This should drive up the production costs and thus the final price considerably.Don't forget that the solar system on the car improves the value retention.This is particularly interesting when the car is getting old.Then it's very cheap.Then the solar modules may also have to be cleaned in order to develop their full efficiency.Solar cells on the roof of the house are not cleaned, in contrast to the car, which is occasionally driven through the car wash.The thought that you can only drive/charge such a car with the cell is tempting, but unfortunately not practicable.In any case, it is not impractical because it has no disadvantages in everyday life.Unfortunately, only the car color is no longer so free.Tue Aug 23 22:07:39 CEST 2022 |jennss@notting wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:16:37:Sono states: "On an annual average, the Sion should be able to drive 112 kilometers per week with the power of the sun,And what if the car wg.Standing around on vacation for 1-2 weeks and that's why the battery is getting too full?;-)You can leave it pretty much empty.Then it takes maybe 3-4 weeks until it is full.And I already wrote that there is hopefully an adjustable loading limit in the software.I only charge our ID.3 up to 80%.The charging limit could also be adjusted via the app (as with the ID.3).They will also assume clean cars, but this is not always the case or would cause additional costs, at least as far as my car washing behavior is concerned.In addition, you will not be able to drive much in winter, even if parked outside and there is no snow on it.It's still useful.Solar cells are almost never washed, no matter where they are installed.@notting wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:16:37:which brings the GHG quota for e-cars (approx. 350 €/year)IMHO it will go down soon because there is a larger supply of BEV/charging station owners selling their GHG quota and less demand for the GHG quota because more and more BEV/charging station owners are filling up less and less.It also has nothing to do with solar energy.@notting wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:16:37:(at 40 cents/kWh and 20 kWh/100 km average consumption about 4375 km)My basic supplier will soon charge new customers approx. EUR 0.50/kWh _plus_ basic fee.Yes, then the solar cells save even more money.With us will also soon on 37 Ct.elevated.Gas is also getting more expensive.It's a real energy crisis.Solar cells are becoming more and more worthwhile.@notting wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:16:37:My last two rental cars in the Golf class from the VAG group used about 6l/100km of petrol on long journeys.It is also not as high as the Sono.@notting wrote on August 23, 2022 at 08:16:37:There is one topic you didn't address at all: Even every bump in the park and hail damage are likely to cause massively higher costs, either for the person who caused it or for you elsewhere.Is that worth the little bit of electricity gained?!If it's really 5000 km every year, that's not so little.I can't estimate what it costs to repair the solar cells.But it shouldn't be that expensive anymore.Wed Aug 24 08:20:04 CEST 2022 |bread mrThe solar roof of my Prius 3 "only" operates the ventilation, but with a few simple steps it can also be used to charge the battery.I find the ventilation and the remote-controlled air conditioning very practical.The car is in the blazing sun from midday and if I then had to supply less or hardly any energy myself (refueling or with a BEV or PHEV socket), that wouldn't be bad.Wed Aug 24 08:30:08 CEST 2022 |Black Forest4motionYes, that's kind of an emotional barrier, I don't want to pay for the parking climate with electricity generated by CO2 so quickly.Under the solar conditions it is much easier to let it run.Wed Aug 24 10:30:38 CEST 2022 |Senior PhysicianThe first Leaf was available more than 10 years ago in the high specification with a small 5 watt solar spoiler that charged the 12V lead battery.It was said "trickle charge is better than no charge at all".https://www.google.com/imgres?...https://www.google.com/imgres?...https://www.google.com/imgres?...All previous "bigger" solar stories on car roofs, hoods and flanks could only be attributed to some inefficient tinkering & pioneering experiments.From gags to compulsively requested, dysfunctional loading aids.The reason was that the previous PV technology only worked in direct sunlight and also had to be at the right angle directly to the sun.If the sun comes at an angle, it is already -30 to -50% less PV power.When there were clouds, cloudy skies or just a decent amount of bird droppings or leaves on the module, the power line in the panel was interrupted and 0-watt dead.Senior Physician